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Thread: Rules update needed?

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Default Rules update needed?

    Let's refer to the official WTFDA station counting guidelines...

    http://wtfda.org/criteria.html

    ... for the purposes of this discussion.

    With the proliferation of automated / remote DXing, now a days, it got me thinking...

    There seems to be a general agreement that you can log a station DXed anywhere within a 25 mile radius of your home location. (Although, a thorough reading of the rules shows no such 25 mile limit) So, you could set up a remote / auto-logger system anywhere within this 25 mile radius and count the stations it receives in your 'home' logbook. (So far, so good)

    Let's take this another step...

    Who says the remote system has to be automated? Couldn't two, real live human DXers within 25 miles of each other, just agree that each others locations are remotes and share any DX reception from either location? (Uh-oh, where's he going with this?)

    Let's take this a step further...

    Since, 'officially,' the '25 mile limit' is not specified in the rules, why couldn't two DXers, at any distance apart, agree that each others auto-loggers / home locations are remotes, and count any DX received, at any location under their control, in their 'home' logbooks? (Now we have a problem)

    Hey, Jim T (Springfield, MO) how'd you like to add my location as one of your remotes? You'd be able to put 795 DTVs in the log, with a simple key-stroke, and, as the rules are currently written, it would be 'legal.' :-)

    Maybe, we could set up DXing teams and combine all of our DX reception...Pennsylvania vs. Texas , Mid-South vs. Mid-West, Auto-loggers vs. Humans, etc.

    Of course, all of this is ridiculous, and I wouldn't count any DX that wasn't received at my home location but, this 'can of worms,' is there for the opening under the current rules.

    73, Ed NN2E
    Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds
    Last edited by NN2E; 11-12-2017 at 11:26 AM.
    "You Might Be a Redneck If...
    Your TV is on 24/7.
    Your TV has been permanently on for over a decade.
    The only time your TV is off is during a power outage.
    Your TV gets 512 channels, but you go outside to use the bathroom.
    Your new TV is sitting on top of your old TV.
    Your TV costs more than all of your other furniture.
    Your deer-stand has a TV antenna on it.
    Your cable provider has no idea that you exist."
    Jeff Foxworthy

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Akron Ohio
    Posts
    637

    Default

    It would be a good idea to add the 25-mile radius limit into the rules. I've been using this rule for quite a while now. As you know, my home location is very poor, and so I often try using my portable setup in various locations around here. Most of the time, I only need to go as far as 10 miles and it can make a huge difference just getting more favorable terrain or hiding behind a hill so that my local blowtorches are not blasting away the DX.

    Regarding the automated DXing, I also have a remotely operated setup at my brother's house in Doylestown. I installed the antenna myself. I can fully control what channel I monitor and where I aim the antenna. This setup is 7 miles from my home. I can even use my smartphone wherever I'm at to rotate where I think it would be best to aim the antenna. Therefore I have full control. It's no different than if I were there in the DX shack.

    There are also two other autologgers in the Akron area... Jeff Rostron operates one, and there's also another in Stow, which is operated by someone I don't really know. I cannot count their DX. That would be too much of a leap, as I did nothing to get it. Jeff has a few logs that I've never been able to capture, but I still need to capture them myself if I want to add them to the log count.

    Does that make sense? I have to actively work to get the DX.
    Andrew

    My TV and FM DX Photos from Akron, Ohio...
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/133179000@N04/albums

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    15 mi NW Phila, PA
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    I'm not sure where the 25 mile "rule" came from, nor am I confident that there is general agreement. At one point I had thought it was 15, which is what I've used. For those away from a major metro, the difference between 15 miles and 25 miles may not amount to much, but for those of us within that distance from a major metro, it would. 25 miles from here going North would put me about where Steve K3PHL lives and the difference between his QTH and mine is enormous in that he has relatively minor difficulty with all of the Philadelphia locals and their IBOC which give me fits. 25 miles west would take me about halfway to Lancaster, again making a major difference in conditions.

    That said, I wouldn't change my criteria even if WTFDA did make the 25 mile "rule" official.
    Russ Edmunds
    15 mi NW Philadelphia, PA
    WB2BJH -- Grid FN20id
    Yamaha T-80 & Conrad RDS Manager;
    Yamaha T-85 & Conrad RDS Manager;
    Onkyo T450RDS; 4) Tecsun PL-310;
    Sony XDR-S3; Sony ICF2010; all w/ APS-9B @ 15';
    Sony ICF2010 barefoot w/ whip


  4. #4
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    Taking that a step further, when Nick still lived in Florence, Nick, Steve and I were about 25 miles each from the others. Both of them had a much better band for DX than I do. FWIW, nearly half of the channels in the band here are occupied by either a local, a strong near-local or nearly impenetrable IBOC hiss. If I counted a season's worth of new ones for either of them it'd increase my totals significantly.
    Russ Edmunds
    15 mi NW Philadelphia, PA
    WB2BJH -- Grid FN20id
    Yamaha T-80 & Conrad RDS Manager;
    Yamaha T-85 & Conrad RDS Manager;
    Onkyo T450RDS; 4) Tecsun PL-310;
    Sony XDR-S3; Sony ICF2010; all w/ APS-9B @ 15';
    Sony ICF2010 barefoot w/ whip


  5. #5
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    Mar 2007
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    Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
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    My opinion + $7 will get you a Starbucks coffee, but....

    I have no dog in this fight, as I don't keep any logs (gasp!), except my DTV total, which was been stagnant for about 6 months (last one being WOPX 48 "ION" Melbourne FL).

    My thrills just come from what I can get on trips lately. The YouTubes are mainly to lay out what can be had on tropo from the Florida Keys (in case someone gets Cuba on Es some other months of the year), and to show how "free" of I BLOCK & translators that *some* areas can be!

    Sure I still DX at home....but nothing earth shattering here lately. My antennas for home are still down from preparation for Hurricane Irma, and to be honest, from what I have gathered, I haven't missed a thing. My car radio antenna was blown off as well (not related to Irma---just poor workmanship).

    Once I can get a decent new (or refurbished) PC, I can upload audio once more. However at this time, all my "shared" DX is YouTube exclusively.

    cd

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Thunderstorm, KY
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    While we're at it, let's look at rule #9...

    "9) DX obtained by recording only, and not witnessed at the actual time of the reception, is eligible -- so long as the contributor himself chose the frequency and prepared the recording apparatus. When more than one DXer is present at a DX reception, even as a visitor to another DXer's shack, only those having an active part in the reception may claim the DX."

    ... You'll note the word, "frequency" is singular, not plural. This would indicate that unattended reception of one channel / frequency is acceptable but unattended logging of multi-channels / frequencies (auto-logging) is not.

    The 25 mile thing came up when I threatened to load up a DTV rx and antenna in my airplane and DX from altitude. This got some DXers panties all in a bunch and I was told if I was going to do this I couldn't be more than 25 miles from home.

    73, Ed NN2E
    Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds
    "You Might Be a Redneck If...
    Your TV is on 24/7.
    Your TV has been permanently on for over a decade.
    The only time your TV is off is during a power outage.
    Your TV gets 512 channels, but you go outside to use the bathroom.
    Your new TV is sitting on top of your old TV.
    Your TV costs more than all of your other furniture.
    Your deer-stand has a TV antenna on it.
    Your cable provider has no idea that you exist."
    Jeff Foxworthy

  7. #7
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    Location
    Akron Ohio
    Posts
    637

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    Quote Originally Posted by NN2E View Post
    The 25 mile thing came up when I threatened to load up a DTV rx and antenna in my airplane and DX from altitude. This got some DXers panties all in a bunch and I was told if I was going to do this I couldn't be more than 25 miles from home.

    73, Ed NN2E
    Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds
    I've been using the 25-mile rule, and I've been told that it's perfectly legal.

    Let me also say that it's not easy to pack up all the DXing equipment in the car, drive 15 miles (10-mile radius), sit in a parking lot for hours, have the police pull up and question you, and just to get a few new logs... it's not easy.

    Be happy you live in tropo alley, and you can get hundreds of logs without any effort. I've had my autologger running for 2 years, and it hasn't gotten me anything exciting. It's all about location!!

    Ed, I don't think you'd get any more DX from an airplane than you already have logged from your location.

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    15 mi NW Phila, PA
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    Clearly the rules need to be changed to consider the use of SDR's, which log multiple frequencies at once. [ Although I could interpret the existing rules to say that since the DX'er chose a whole chunk of frequencies - just as I do now with 10 tuners/receivers in play - that would be OK. By extension a remote site within whatever distance it is would also be OK, but it would be helpful to make the rules clearer.
    Russ Edmunds
    15 mi NW Philadelphia, PA
    WB2BJH -- Grid FN20id
    Yamaha T-80 & Conrad RDS Manager;
    Yamaha T-85 & Conrad RDS Manager;
    Onkyo T450RDS; 4) Tecsun PL-310;
    Sony XDR-S3; Sony ICF2010; all w/ APS-9B @ 15';
    Sony ICF2010 barefoot w/ whip


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
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    I like cd's comment that he doesn't keep logs. This hobby would be a lot easier and have less hassle if we simply didn't keep logs and a running total of stations received. I'm all in for that. This is a hobby and I have fun seeing what can be received. Actually, logging and counting the stations received is my least favorite thing to do. Let's have fun!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Akron Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by indysteve View Post
    I like cd's comment that he doesn't keep logs. This hobby would be a lot easier and have less hassle if we simply didn't keep logs and a running total of stations received. I'm all in for that. This is a hobby and I have fun seeing what can be received. Actually, logging and counting the stations received is my least favorite thing to do. Let's have fun!
    Steve, that's a good point. I've been DXing for many years... mostly just for fun while I was growing up, and I never counted logs until I noticed it was the thing to do when I joined the WTFDA. What's the point if you move to an area that's known for tropo? There's no challenge in doing that. As DXers, we all know there are many factors that alter DX. I'm still trying to figure it all out. Living here in Akron, I have to consider factors that someone else may not even have to worry about. But we all know that a total log count doesn't really tell you much. It says nothing about how much time was spent DXing.

    Regarding the autologgers, I use them to help me DX, but they're not my sole source of how I DX. It would seem that many people really don't know how to DX as they have just let the autologgers do everything. That's not fun in my opinion. It's all merely just a chart and map. I get more fun out of the hobby by studying the maps, rotating the antennas to wherever I think is best, manually scanning the channels myself, and ACTUALLY SEEING THE DX (particularly with ID material)!! I don't get too thrilled when I see someone post a photo of a map of the DX they captured. That's no fun... they didn't actually experience the DX.
    Andrew

    My TV and FM DX Photos from Akron, Ohio...
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/133179000@N04/albums

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