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  • 2 down, 3 to go.....

    Hi

    Wasn't sure where to drop this post.....

    Along with Miami getting another analog ch 6 a couple of weeks ago, now the low power DTV 3 (WSBS) has hopped on. I don't know how long they have been operating on ch 3 DTV...just noticed today.

    So, for Es, I'm down to chs 2, 4 & 5...... Who's applying?

    BTW has anybody told WSBS that DTV on low V doesn't work? <shrug>

    cd

  • #2
    So, for Es, I'm down to chs 2, 4 & 5...... Who's applying?
    Chances are, someone...

    The FCC just held a filing window for digital LPTVs, and somewhere between several hundred and a couple thousand were filed. It's quite simply going to be impossible to list them in the VUD -- we're only going to see the ones that get granted.

    (I think it is VERY likely the FCC is about to run out of K13 calls!)
    Doug Smith W9WI
    Pleasant View, TN EM66
    http://www.w9wi.com

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    • #3
      Christopher, I hate to hear this. Is the channel 3 DTV snow so strong during the daytime in regular conditions that Es won't make it through?

      With LPTVs and other services wanting to use the empty channels, I've never felt secure about long-term DXing on the newly opened low-band channels.
      Danny
      Shreveport, LA
      Mexico/Latin America TV DX ID Tips http://www.tvdxtips.com
      Submit and read DTV Stats http://www.tvdxexpo.com/dtvdxrecords.html
      TV and DTV DX Photographs http://www.tvdxexpo.com
      My Photographs of 100 Mexico TV DX Local IDs http://www.tvdxexpo.com/100mexicotvids.html
      More than 1,100 TV logs since 1994

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      • #4
        With all those filings there seems to be little chance for FM expansion into Ch 5 and 6 turf or the creation of a 4-m ham band (70-MHz) in North America.

        73, Pat - WA5IYX

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        • #5
          Oh well. Back to Everglades City, I guess. ****sighhhhh****

          To Danny: I think it'll be hard to tell the difference in "snow" for me, whether the 3 was on or it wasn't.

          The upside (if any) is, I think I have seen practically all the analog 3's in normal Es range in the Americas. Not like anything new would show up anyhow.

          cd

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          • #6
            Originally posted by pjdyer View Post
            With all those filings there seems to be little chance for FM expansion into Ch 5 and 6 turf or the creation of a 4-m ham band (70-MHz) in North America.

            73, Pat - WA5IYX
            I think the ch5/ch6=>FM thing never really was going anywhere. There were going to be large,populous areas where the spectrum could not be released for FM due to full-power DTV5/DTV6 stations; Albany, Philadelphia, Birmingham, Nashville, Memphis, Milwaukee would all be areas where one or both of these channels would be unusable. Probably New York, Chicago, Baltimore, and Atlanta as well due to the need to ensure FM stations didn't cause interference to DTV in the adjacent Philly/Milwaukee/Birmingham markets.

            And the LPTVs going into this spectrum are not really a surprise.

            I think the next thing that will surprise some observers (but not me!) will be when the FCC decides to start accepting applications to amend the DTV Table of Allocations and add more allotments for full-power DTV stations. I think we will see most of the low-band channels come back. (and many of these new LP-DTVs getting bumped...)

            It may be common knowledge that low-band doesn't work well for DTV, but the theoretical coverage that comes with a channel allotment entitles one to must-carry on cable. Even if you'd need a 40-foot tower that no modern-day HOA-bound homeowner would imagine building to receive the station. A full-power DTV license on channel 3 in Oak Park, Illinois -- with must-carry protection on every cable system in the greater Chicago area -- would be a gold mine even if only a few hundred people could receive it off-air.
            Doug Smith W9WI
            Pleasant View, TN EM66
            http://www.w9wi.com

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            • #7
              In Miami's case, WSBS 3 is already on most, if not all, cable systems. What I did notice was, WSBS has a DT-2 with color bars.

              DTV 3 showed a no-signal this morning, but like I said, my antenna is on the fritz. Means nothing.

              cd

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              • #8
                Here's a question I think W9WI can answer, but anybody else who can, can freely jump in....

                Let's say for the sake of argument that someone is applying for both DTV 2 AND 4 in Miami, and the stations go on the air. Since the virtual 2 & 4 here are on UHF, wouldn't there be a mapping issue? Would WPBT & WFOR have to "delete" their virtual channel numbers, and simply go by "WPBT" and "WFOR" on screen? IOW, if the new stations come on, and I press 2-1 or 4-1, what would come up, if WPBT & WFOR keep their virtuals?

                Don't be surprised if I confused any of you. I can't splain it myself.

                cd

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                • #9
                  This is from the FCC's ATSC specs for virtual channels. Talk about convoluted...

                  4) If, after the transition, a previously used NTSC RF channel in a market is assigned to a newly-licensed DTV broadcaster in that market, the newly-licensed DTV broadcaster shall use, as his major [e.g., virtual] channel number, the number of the DTV RF channel originally allocated to the previous NTSC licensee of the assigned channel.

                  Thus, if new stations (whether LPTV or full-power) were to turn up in Miami on RF chs. 2 and 4, they would be assigned the "virtual" channel numbers 18 and 22, respectively.

                  That's right -- you would have stations transmitting on 18 and 22, but calling themselves "2.1" and "4.1," while the stations actually transmitting on 2 and 4 would be called "18.1" and "22.1."

                  I'm not making this up. I wish I was. (You couldn't unless you were on some serious drugs). There was a long discussion about this lunacy on the AVS forum recently. It makes no sense to me, but then, little about the whole "virtual channel" bit makes much sense. While no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people, apparently we are all SO dumb that we are incapable of comprehending the concept of "the station that used to be on channel X is now on channel Y." Sure, it would be confusing with most stations in most markets changing channels when they went from analog to digitial -- so publish a conversion chart, let people cut it out and hang it by their TVs, and in a few weeks they'll have the hang of it. Nope -- far too much confusion -- we have to all pretend that WPBT and WFOR are still chs. 2 and 4, regardless of that nasty inconvenience known as reality. {SIGH} :duh:
                  Last edited by Stanislav; 09-14-2009, 06:04 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Well, better to have OTA DTV channels crammed cheek-to-jowl than all that "empty" space being stuffed full of those WSD (white-space devices) Of course, there weren't supposed to be any of those items allowed to be on lo-VHF, were they ?

                    CATV (or translator) viewers have been dealing with that virtual channel nonsense for decades. I first became aware of their jumbling channels during our very brief term as a CATV customer in Austin in late 1968 (only VHF out, and one of them was an automated weather-dial display). Too much herringbone, etc on their system to be worth the c. $5 a month back then - and I really didn't need network duplications with San Antonio, Austin, and Killeen-Waco stations (years before "superstations" were offered).

                    73, Pat - WA5IYX

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                    • #11
                      To Stanislav---

                      I have read your post....now I am expecting to wake up outta my dream.

                      Just amazing. I would have to think then, that if the LPTVs decided to have a logo bug, they will HAVE to read "18" & "22"....how else would anyone know?

                      I suppose that this will be an encouragement for new stations here NOT to try for those channels. The audacity of hope....

                      cd

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh goodie, goodie gumdrops! Now we are going to have low power stations to mess up TV DXing like they do FM DXing? Just great. I know LPFM and translators "can" provide a service, but I absolutely cringe every time I read Doug's FM News updates because it seems 90% of the entries are low power or translator. The reason I put "can" in quotation marks is because from where I sit, translators are a waste of a potential DX frequency. When a 50KW FM station is allowed to have translators in cities 20-25 miles away, when its primary frequency's signal strength easily provides coverage, it's just wrong, wrong, wrong. :banghead:

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                        • #13
                          Sometimes FM xltors seem to be an entity in search of a service. The K279AB 80w 3 mi at 24-deg from me on 103.7 started out importing 98.7 Victoria. When a local 100-kw emerged on 98.5 that was a no-go anymore, so it switched to Hondo's 105.9. Early this year it dropped that (during a downtime for a Hondo ant refit) and now has KAHL 1310 on it (boasting EL "now in stereo in town on 103.7"). The first xltor here (1983, now defunct) was on 95.3 for 100.3 - claiming that they couldn't "compete" with others (4) downtown who had their TLs on the HemisFair tower there. For a while one on 94.3 within 2 mi of me imported 92.1 from Devine - which went off at night so xltor would key up then when any tropo DX hit it In the past 18 months or so xltors on 92.1 and 92.3 were evidently forced off by New Braunfels and Kerrville proving that they had an affected audience here in town. Now if Austin on 93.7 could do likewise ...

                          73, Pat - WA5IYX

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by antennanut View Post
                            Oh goodie, goodie gumdrops! Now we are going to have low power stations to mess up TV DXing like they do FM DXing?
                            You don't know the half of it. Since the FCC opened the filing window for new LPTVs in rural areas (outside the top 100 markets), there have been a crapload of applications, in most cases usually filed by one or two speculators who are applying for just about every technically possible channel in a given area. Here in Florida, the Keys and the Panhandle have dozens and dozens of channels applied for; also quite a few in the Ocala-Gainesville area and a small clump around Vero Beach-Sebastian. And starting January 10, the filing window opens nationwide, so even in big markets, if there are any available channels, someone's going to go after them. Add to that all the "fill-in" translators being requested by full-power stations, plus vacated VHF channels that will eventually be sought by new potential full-power stations when the FCC starts accepting those apps, and the bands are going to be quite crowded indeed.

                            To be fair, no one knows how many of these LP apps will be granted, or how many will actually make it to air. Most of these apps seem to be made on a speculative (throw everything up on the wall and see what sticks) basis -- apply for everything you can, maybe you get one or two channels, and anything you get that you can't actually use, you try to sell for a profit. For a medium (over-the-air TV) that many were ready to write-off as dead, there are apparently a lot of folks who still think they can make money on it.

                            This clutter is not just going to negatively affect you DXers, but fringe viewers as well. If you're struggling to get reliable reception of stations 50, 75+ miles away or more, and suddenly LPs start popping up in your vicinity on some of the same channels, it's going to put the kibosh on your ability to watch your soaps or reality trash. When an ATSC receiver "sees" more than one signal on a channel, it treats them both/all as noise unless one predominates by more than 15 db. The end result is that competing signals don't just produce CCI like in the analog days -- the DTV receiver will simply decode nothing at all.

                            Welcome to the brave new world of OTA TV!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              About the Keys----

                              You may know that I have done mucho DXing from the Keys, especially from Mile Marker 40. You are free to view my past posts, either "Got FM DX?" or "Got Analog TV DX?"

                              Could this possibly be a "reverse TV Marti"; i.e, we Yanquis not being able to view Cuban TV? (I refer to all the applications.) I will tell you firsthand....there are few----very very few----outdoor antennas there. Cable/satellite is covered by 99.95% of homes.

                              I say, whoever wants to apply is free to waste their money.

                              One of the recent apps was interesting: ch 15 for Orient City. Where is Orient City, I asked myself. Well it's near Islamorada in the Keys. You could go there and ask for directions to Orient City, and only get the "????" from people. (If "City" is included in the name, it better be big!)

                              cd

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